News

Thursday, September 9, 2010

Courthouse tradition ends as county elects to avoid legal battle

December 17, 2009

ACLU axes nativity, menorah

By Jennifer Learn-Andes jandes@timesleader.com
Luzerne County Reporter

A familiar nativity scene and menorah were removed from the Luzerne County Courthouse lawn Wednesday night because the American Civil Liberties Union threatened to get a restraining order.

click image to enlarge

A menorah and statues in the nativity scene on the Luzerne County Courthouse lawn were removed Wednesday night after the American Civil Liberties Union threatened legal action. The empty manger remains.

Pete G. Wilcox/the times leader

Related headlines

Select images available for purchase in the
Times Leader Photo Store

County Solicitor Vito DeLuca said a Pittsburgh lawyer from the ACLU contacted him Wednesday to give the county an opportunity to remove the items before it filed court action that was already in the works.

The ACLU argues the displays violate the separation of church and state clause of the U.S. Constitution, DeLuca said.

DeLuca said county officials opted not to spend time and money on a lawsuit – at least not at this time – because they are swamped with the budget crisis and other pressing matters.

“We didn’t feel it was in the best interest of the county at this time to fight that battle,” DeLuca said. “We believe the most prudent thing at this point was to remove the items.”

An ACLU representative could not be reached Wednesday night.

The county may revisit the matter next year and come up with alternatives that don’t violate the Constitution, DeLuca said.

DeLuca said the public should not get the impression that any county officials personally agree with the removal. He remembers spotting the courthouse nativity scene as a boy.

Commissioner Chairwoman Maryanne Petrilla said she expects people will be upset.

“Clearly, we all have our own faith, but the law’s the law. The nativity scene and menorah have been a part of the courthouse a long time, and I’m sure people remember them when they were growing up,” she said.

Petrilla said she and other county officials believed it would be “irresponsible” to engage in a lawsuit.

“We can all express our faith privately when we’re in our homes,” Petrilla said.

The nativity scene that has been placed on the lawn for decades included a manger, kings, shepherds, animals and Mary and Joseph. Building and grounds staffers placed Baby Jesus in the nativity on Christmas Eve.

Building and grounds workers removed everything except the manger and turned off the nativity spotlight.

DeLuca did not know if the ACLU complaint stemmed from a local concern.

The ACLU had threatened a lawsuit against the county over this issue in 1990, but a suit never materialized.

Commissioners at the time refused to comply with the removal request. They expanded the manger and decided to add a menorah. Security was also added to make sure the items were not vandalized at night.

Nativity scenes on courthouse lawns became an issue in the late 1980s after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a nativity scene was an endorsement of Christianity and violated separation between church and state.

Jennifer Learn-Andes, a Times Leader staff writer, may be reached at 831-7333.

Send Question/Comment to the Publisher
Note: This will not appear in the "comments" section. Please see below to post a comment to the story

276 COMMENTS

Enuff already! said...

This has gone far enough! Since when does the ACLU, dictate this country's traditions. Solution: The County feels it would be in the best interest not to entertain an expensive legal fight. Then Christmas should not be recognized as a legal holiday, and thus save tax payers more money than our traditions are worth. Interesting, if this country, as a whole, went after the ACLU, for infringing on the customs and traditions, and took them to task. Since when are symbols, like the Nativity scene and the Menorah, offensive! What will be next on the deletion of OUR rights, traditions and customs! If it's not legal, then why do we shop for CHRISTMAS presents! Stop shopping and watch the retail stores file the necessary objections to overturn these objections.

Dave said...

DeLuca, Petrilla, you are all COWARDS. You so called Catholics. These are idled threats. These people do not have the resources to sue every municipality. You got a phone call and you cowards caved. You spineless, gutless wimps. Keep the thing up until you get a circuit court decision. Don't think I won't remember you come election time. I am sick of everyone attacking MY HOLIDAY. You stand for NO principals. Every one of you commissioners should be voted out because I hear nobody willing to challenge this. Tell me where I send my check for the defense fund. You people make me sick.

Leonard Piazza said...

I was thinking about the larger nativity set we used to put up and how I miss it ... that's too bad, really. We have the plastic "commerical christmas" snowman out there ... I thought that negated any church-state issues ... and I miss the Courthouse being lighted at night. "Tis the season!"

Francis J. Kloran said...

Well at least the County Commissioners in 1990 had the balls to stand up to the American Civil Liberties Union. What will they receive in a court ordered settlement, $1.00. Let the battle begin.

Lin said...

Time to demand our tax dollars back from the ACLU. They do not represent those who are being religiously persecuted by taking down a symbol of the majority of Taxpayers who are Christian and pay their salaries!!!!!!

Sick of this BS said...

We are "one nation under GOD".....remember?? What about Freedom of Expression????

A Christian with Tolerance of All said...

And the COmmissioner's fold under pressure. If the ACLU wants a legal fight then give it to them. I think the Commissioner's should sell a small piece of Court House land to a non profit organization who will use the land for only one purpose, that of displaying the Manger and Menorah. Why didn't they just leave it up and then agree to take it down after Christmas? A law suit should not cost anything because we have enough lawyers on the payroll to handle it in house. The COmmissioners don't have to follow past practice and run to Philly for a lawyer every time they need one.

Father John said...

This is sooo sad...Maybe we should just place a Black wreath on the door of the Courthouse...Next we'll be asked to take down the Christmas tree in the rotunda... Merry Christmas to all...

No more ACLU said...

It is time the ACLU goes away and the real AMERICANS take the country back! There are far more pressing issues these "people" should be persuing. ACLU is an organization that gets their $$$ through methods much like the 1930 mobsters did... EXTORTION plain and simple.

A REAL AMERICAN! said...

The people of the ACLU have gone to far! This country was founded in Christian belief & the language chosen was English! Anything other than these are in violation of Constitutional rights. The ACLU is a disgrace; they no longer represent what is a 'civil right', versus what they as an organization wish to think is one.

a4mrnepanidr said...

Wise not to take on the GrPittsACLU for they were the victorious party to a similar landmark 1989 Establishment Clause Case. Never did concur with the USSupremeCT’s 5/4 Decision since religions depict major roles in our cultures, ancestries, histories… In fact, next to the Manger and Menorah should be an Amun Jadid Scene, Kwanzaa Gifts, Asarnha Puja Display, Festivus Pole… On a more immediate note, a Menorah could and should be returned and placed in the Courthouse within the vicinity of the Tree pursuant to secular case of Lynch v Donnelly (1984).

Philip G. Pizano said...

Maybe they should get rid of the Bible when swearing in. Could you go to work Christmas Day or are they going to make every one stay Home? No complaints there I imagine. Does the ACLU work on Christmas Day? There could be a Conflict of Issue here. Wouldn't want to collect a Days pay because of the endorsement of Christianity.

John said...

This county is amazing! We will allow murderer's, drug dealers and pedophiles walk our streets but we will not allow the worlds savior to be shown to anyone. Do you see something wrong with this? What about all of the religious references in the courthouse? In the architecture? Are we going to remove those? It may offened my aunt Sally from Ohio when she visits next year! People, get a grip on what's important!

james wunelevyn said...

" They never see me coming" Al Pacino, The Devils Advocate

Joe said...

The public should have the right to know your accuser! We want names! The ACLU is the most anti-American organization (second only to Al-qaeda). Perhaps Deluca would choose to take on the fight “spend the time” if he was a Christian. Do you think a strong Christian in the Courthouse would just roll-over too? The destruction of the American culture continues (soon to be complete).

Rick said...

This is so sad to read. I guess it should not surprise me , considering the way this country is headed.Why don't we put a big Santa and Elves out there , because after all that whats CHRISTmas is all about right ?

Kathleen said...

I would hope that my entire post will be placed in the comment section-we will see. Mr. DeLuca and Maryanne Petrilla are grossly misinformed and better read up on their laws! These items on the lawn in NO WAY violated the Constitution. I would ask that the items be put back. The statement that these violates church and state is a cop out-one that too many people fall for much too often. Get some backbone people, and start reading up on your history!! By the way-Merry Christmas , Kwanzaa and Hanukkah!!!

Mikmal said...

So the County just caves in to the ACLU and cowers in the courner. Talk about spineless! This is our county, not the ACLU's!!

Rodney C. said...

It has been said that locals will be upset by the removal of the items. But with all of the corruption being uncovered in the county, you'd think that our taxpaying citizens would have had enough of the constitutional violations, big and small. Or does tradition trump the constitution in Luzerne County?

Janet said...

I personally think the ACLU has to much time on their hands. Did one person call and complain to them? so now we bow down and take all decorations down? How about all those years we had them up nobody complained then.. I say put it all back up and the heck w/ the ACLU

LuzCoTaxpayer said...

Dear ACLU, You are offending my right as a "Catholic", to enjoy a prominent image of Christmas. Here is a suggestion for Luzerne County, offer the opportunity for individual groups to display their heritage to make it equal for all.

Enough! said...

You have got to be kidding me! Seperation of church and state? I bet the ACLU have no problem using money that reads "In God We Trust"! This country was founded on the belief in God. And now, after everything that has happened in this county....there are morals and values? Enough already...

The Black Knight said...

Keep your religion away from the Court House that I pay to maintain! Put your mangers and menorahs in your own yard and be happy you can do that!

Lisa R Luksic said...

I guess it's not fair to defile the Christian and Jewish faiths by putting symbols of them outside this courthouse: "a den of theives"

MEO said...

Thank them for making more people in the valley mad. Christmas and Channukah are time of family and community. Cripes the valley needs a little of that these days.

K said...

It is rediculous that we as Americans cannot even have a Nativity in our own country because it "offends others"! If they do not like it then tough poop!

dave said...

This is just another example of people especially lawyers that have nothing better to do that stir the pot. The nativity & menorah have been a part of the courthouse landscape for a very long time and now it bothers someone. This is absolutely awful

davebillis said...

The ACLU is the one that needs the restraining order.

Rollie Ciffo said...

Gutless Luzerne County politicians... They'll steal everything that isn't nailed down. When they need to show some backbone where is it? Unreal.

James O'Meara, Sr. said...

"The law is the law." After endless years of corruption, it takes the FBI to finally start cleaning house in our county. It takes one phone call from the ACLU and in less than a day a nativity scene and menorah are whisked away under the cover of darkness. Because the law is the law. I wish I could say I'm surprised.

SAH said...

I'm an atheist who drives by the courthouse every day. I've never been offended by the presence of the manger or the menorah, and I certainly don't need the ACLU to speak for me. It's too bad the county can't afford to get involved in this.

John Krebs said...

Ignorance of the law creates irrational fear of violation of the separation of church and state.Under the Establishment Clause,government is prohibited from advancing,promoting or endorsing religion.To overcome this and get the ACLU off your backs,just include some secular symbols of CHRISTMAS within the same parameter of view.Example would be a CHRISTMAS TREE,A SANTA CLAUS or a sign of SEASONS GREETINGS placed behind the manger.This way the NATIVITY does not become the focal point of the display."MERRY CHRISTMAS" to all,even the ACLU.

Ann Savinski said...

"We can all express our faith privately when we're in our own homes," But, my faith is one that I should want to share it with others!! Why do Christians, Catholics and Jews have to curtail their freedoms so as not to "offend" those who don't share their beliefs? You wait, next will be someone who claims you are hurting them when you are celbrating winter and they happen to hate winter!

REM said...

Such a shame! With all this Country is going through lately God forbid we try and show people they can have something to believe in - just another thing taken away from the people - does the ACLU realize there would be NO Christmas without CHRIST!!!

Anthony said...

Yippie! Take the Christmay Day Parade from NYC and tell all those New Yorkers to choke on it. A large city has the citizens and can muster a couple million in donations quickly. The ACLosers know that! Founded by Protestants, moved to Catholicism, heading toward Christianity. In all reality, it was designed to keep the Pope out. It was designed to prevent the church (any religion) from getting in the way of good government! It was not designed to snuff out religious expression! Tell me...WHO IS USING THE SEPERATION TO BECOME WEALTHY AND WIELD POWER???

Catholic Supporter said...

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!! I am so sick of hearing happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Hand bell choirs aren't welcome to play in malls if they play religious carols (Silent Night, Joy to the World, etc). Towns can't display the nativity and menorah. What a joke!!! The USA was founded under the pretense of "one Nation under God". Are these ACLU or atheist morons going to boycott money b/c it has "In God we trust" on it?!?!?!? I am thoroughly DISGUSTED by all this and will SHOUT MERRY CHRISTMAS to each and everyone I see this holiday. I advise you to all do the same. If people are offended that you're wishing them a good sentiment -- TOO DARN BAD. They should rejoice because you're wishing them well - plain and simple!!!!

sunny said...

“We can all express our faith privately when we’re in our homes,” Petrilla said. I got to this point and couldn't go any further. Why should I express my faith privately in my home when the ACLU fights for freedom of expression for gays, muslims to cover their faces for drivers licenses...all of whom proclaim their beliefs with zeal and protection of those rights under the same constitution. ACLU is an organization based on the ideals of a democracy and our rights to express our faith and beliefs, yet they now want to take away the very rights they claim to fight for. Since they are calling this a "church" issue they are finally putting the Christ back in Christmas. Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah!

mousey said...

I don't remember voting for anyone in the ACLU. Who made the ACLU the boss? Who says we have to listen to them?

Jackie Prescavage said...

TOTALLY WRONG.........what about the PEOPLE who wanat the navity scene and the menorah? WE HAVE RIGHTS TOO, not only the ACLU. If I complain about the ACLU, will they be orced to go away? PUT THE NAVITY AND MENORAH BACK!

Publius said...

Go ACLU! Hooray! Another victory for the people against ignorance and corruption! (This is not sarcasm for those who are easily confused.) Just like I heard the mother telling her child at the mall, "Don't lie or Santa Clause won't bring you anything." And you wonder why Americans are so screwed up!

Demon Vampire said...

The county could put the nativity and the menorah together, add the snowman, santa, candy canes, and a tree of knowledge (see Chester County)--all in the same localized display--and that would be legal. Or do Xians and Jews don't want any competition?

Campion said...

Typical ACLU...a Pittsburgh lawyer sticking his nose into luzerne county. Hey, congratulations, America, you've voted these left wing types into power so don't complain here; you reap what you sow. Smart decision by the county not to fight it at a time resources are slim; maybe people will realize someday that votes have consequences. If you helped turn Pennsylvania blue, stop complaining; you're part of the problem so don't complain now.

Vicky Walters said...

with all the corruption going on in the courthouse it figures they would remove Jesus (the nativity and menora). Feel guilty much?

Gary WEAVER said...

gary said THERE IS A BIG C and a little C.The big C is all the people that worship in their beliefs and the little C is where we do our worship.We cannot let a few change the way our country was founded,under God. We are fighting and dying overseas to protect peoples beliefs and here we are we can't even protect the beliefs of a clear majority, how can we let someone take away the Baby Jesus or the Menorah? In God we trust.

bart fort said...

how did he see it from pittsburgh?

Tom said...

The ACLU goes hand and hand with the Obama Administration including our Attorney General Eric Holder. Expect more of this "politically correct" stuff to continue, especially with a weak, morally corrupt, bankrupt county like Luzerne County.

Hunlock Creek Johnny said...

Petrilla needs to study history. This country was founded by people who were escaping religous oppression and she advises us to hide in our homes to practice our religion.

smile :) said...

Ah ha! Finally, the cover of all of you Petrilla haters is blown.... The cat is out of the bag! A true person of faith would never write some of the nasty things you write. Consider yourself exposed.

get a set said...

Oh my Did they take down the Christmas opps (Holiday Tree) also. I think we should put this one on a BALLOT for the next election,and let the people of Luzerne County have a voice for a change.

Jay B said...

Can you believe this. How much do you want to wager that this lawyer takes his CHRISTMAS VACATION? The morals and beliefs that this country was founded on are being taken away day after day. I guess it's ok to have freedom of religion as long as the religion of the day and an attorney agrees. I wish everyone a MERRY CHRISTMAS and a very HAPPY NEW YEar filled with frivilous lawsuits. Tis the season!!!

Resident said...

Considering there isn't a single street in the Wyoming Valley you could drive down right now and not see at least one nativity set, statue of Mary, and a whole host of Christmas trees, I find these complaining comments more than a little disingenuous. Just sayin'.

Elizabeth said...

We all have our faith and we NEED to be allowed to display it. How does this help people learn TOLERANCE? I am a Christian who respects everyone's right to religious displays. What is happening to this country?? Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuakka, Joyful Kwanza.. Bah, humbug. Send this guy back to Pittsburg!

AF said...

Arent there other more important battles for the ACLU to fight?

James Benton Jr said...

How would everyone like it if the Muslims had their decorations on public property? I bet it would be very different.

John said...

Nutless!

Bull**** said...

The county doesn't mind taking bribes, sending kids to jail for cash, using county credit cards for personal expenses and so many more crooked things. GET A SET AND DONT BACK DOWN!!!! We might as well make everyone take their own private displays also, these ACLU jack***** might find them offensive while walking or driving on a public roadway and being able to see them.

John S. said...

Leave the manger up, tear down the Courthouse

"They came for me and there was no one left to speak up for me" said...

I'd like to sue the ACLU for violating my rights to decide whether or not to look at a manger scene and/or menorah when I drive past the courthouse.

Paul Apostasia said...

Someone tell me exactly where that the "seperation of church and state" is actually written. You cant find it because ....IT AINT #@!$* THERE!!!!!!

Rob said...

Merry Christmas ACLU, shouldn't you guys be busy freeing terrorists? ACLU = Al-Qaida.

Stop the Madness said...

I thought it was separation OF Church and State not separation FROM Church and state. Lets have a voter question on next years ballot and put the symbols back where they belong.

rich said...

Tell the ACLU to stick it in their ear....this county sucks, they could have said go ahead file your injunction, by the time this was done the holidays would have been over..these commissoners suck to the enth degree....it would have cost a couple hundred at the very most....why were they not concerning with the 1/2 billion dollar depth they have driven us into?????

Ann said...

Way to go Kathleen, I couldn't have said it better. It is not in the constitution. Where did these people go to school?

Bill said...

Bettern yet......get rid of all the lawyers and we will all live in Peace On Earth!!!

Jay said...

How quickly we are willing to say no to our faith and yes to the devil. He must have known our county wouldn't disappoint. Maybe this is why we have the problems we have...if we took God's side a little more things might be different.

Mary Rose said...

This is fast becoming a Communist Country. People need to defend their Faith as much as possible to stop these things from happening. There are many such stories all over the USA with Christianity being outlawed. Scary.

Al said...

They can't dip into the legal "War Wagon", now due to all of the upcoming lawsuits. They turned blind eyes before... what so different now.

RWilliams said...

You bunch of spineless cowards! What a joke! Then the ACLU and this lwayer cannot accept any money donations nor can any of them ever get paid or use any type of money from America. Our treasury bills and coins contain "In GOD WE TRUST on them. In Addition, does not this Pittsburgh lawyer attend court activites where the people he calls to tesitfy have to put their hand on the BIBLE to take an oath? I am surprised our very own Deluca could not think of this and defend our county. If we are going to seperate Church and State, then every word and meaning in our constitution which relates to God must be removed. Do you think the FEDS and our President will allow this to happen? Bring on the lawsuit, I would love to attend this one!

Potato Pancake said...

There has to be a location to set it up that will not draw ACLU scrutiny, any suggestions?

Tammy said...

Corrupt Cowards! First of all we are to let our light shine and let others know what we believe. It's obvious that the County Commissioners don't believe this. Deluca, Petrilla & the rest:The bible says if God be for us who can be against us....ALCU watch out!

Amy said...

Then you know what, the ACLU should NOT have Christmas off!!! THEY SHOULD WORK! But i bet that would never happen.

Valley Voter said...

These commissioners have no back bone and need to be removed for not standing up for the people. Once again this shows no leadership in this county, please people of Luzerne County vote all of these people out next time around.

Dan - Luzerne County said...

While I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state I feel that this is an action gone too far. I could see this being an issue had some members of the public complain but since it appears there aren't any then I don't see an issue. This is a slap in the face of traditional beliefs in our Region, not so much as a religious tradition but as a community tradition. I work for a government office and we have Christmas trees (five of them) in my office. Does that mean I'm violating the constitution or are they considered "Holiday Trees"? This is ridiculous and sad. It just couldn't wait until after New Year.

Machelle Smith said...

All the ACLU members need to move to an Arabic Country, they seem to support everything they believe in..Why don't they have the guts and courage to take a poll of residents in Luzerne County see who wants the Manger and Minorah removed.. I think they would find they would be the minority.... Move out of the County turn your head don't look it... People we need to wake up and stand up for what you believe in this rich group of very Liberal (sounds like Atheist group) has money to take away all our freedoms if we do not speak out......... ACLU stands for American Civil Liberty Union.. I don't see them acting too American... remember the incident in Hazleton them sticking up for ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.. they are not Americans... hello... America better wake up.. Remember Jesus is the Reason for the Season... God Bless America and all who live here...

Annie said...

I am outraged!!! I am so sick and tired of someone saying they don't like other peoples symbols or beliefs, if you don't like it LOOK AWAY!!!!! IGNORE IT!!!!! like I've been trying to ignore you all these years!! This is getting ridiculous everyone talks about political correctness, well I have rights too and I say I want the Nativity scene back on display and the Menorah for those of the Jewish faith. How can the ACLU tell us what to do, what about freedom of speech, freedom of religion?? I thought this country was all about our freedoms, and they are telling us we can't show symbols of our holidays!?!?! Enough is enough!!!!!!!!!!!

Dawn said...

The people at the ACLU need to go out AND GET REAL JOBS!! so they stop finding things to get worked up about.

JS said...

What's Next??? The next thing will be is to ban a fireworks display on the 4th of July!! That is understandable because that would also offend any Non-patriot. The Wyoming Valley is turning in to shuch a toilet bowl. By next year the only thing that will be allowed to be displayed outside the Court House is Gang Colors. Wake up you fools!! It is happening and you don't even know it.

lee said...

It's just SAD what this country is coming to…

Traditional said...

We should get a group and do a live nativity scene on the Courthouse lawn!! MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!! Not Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

Pat said...

Put the religious symbols on your own property, church property, and synagouge property; Not PUBLIC property. Your religous symbols DO NOT represent me, and I pay taxes as well. You are free to express yourself, why should you do so on the public dime. This isn't a theocracy as many of you who commented would like it to be.

dennis said...

although i do agree this is unfortunate, but how much is that whole scene worth, not alot? sell it, along with your luzerne and susquehanna rr, put the cash towards your county deficit, and retract the pay that went to whoever had to set that thing up and take it down. bill the aclu for "services provided by the county" to take it down. 18 million please..

We the people said...

I guess they need to destroy all of our money and official buildings too. They say "in god we trust" in many of this country's government buildings. Enough is enough already. I feel my rights are infringed on every time I go into a public place and see people walking around with rags covering their faces. I cant tell who these people are....for all I know they are criminals. What a clever way to conceal your identity. We the people...need to start standing up for what we believe in again. The people of today's society are afraid to say anything and stand up for what they believe. This is why groups like the NAACP and ACLU are able to thrive. Merry Christmas!!!

Had it with Luzerne County! said...

This is so lame. I am SO tired of Luzerne County. Perhaps the solution is to allow symbols of all types of holiday celebrations on the Courthouse lawn, symbols of Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, etc., and a BIG GRINCH for the ACLU, which seems to want to destroy any semblence of a happy holiday season for the majority of Americans.

ronnie / kingston said...

thankfully this is being addressed. no government entity should be displaying any holiday decorations. these should be left to be on display at private residences and places of worship. our government should get out of the decorating business and focus on govt issues only.

Christmas Ruined said...

Someone should sue the American Civil Liberties Union. So much for expression of religion and free speech in America. Who will stand up against this organization for your rights as Americans? Don't be so nieve on what's going on.

Kathy said...

I think we all should meet at the courthouse and demand they put the manger scene back..maybe we all can place little mangers on the lawn to show them we still have values we believe in... Its time we start sticking up for what we believe and not let the ACLU have there say and win. This county makes me sick...ACLU makes me sick...Merry CHRISTmas

disgusted taxpayer said...

what happened to america being the great melting pot! there is room for all religions in this great country.the reason why the cowards of the county refuse to take a stand, and fight this fight is because none of them can benefit financially from it.If we allow them to take away our menorah and nativity, what will be next? will they fine or arrest us for wearing a star of david, or a cross around our neck?maybe if this county wasn't so corrupt, they would have the funds to fight the aclu! remember the county grinches at the polls on election day and VOTE THEM OUT!

Treehorn said...

Ha ha ha get mad little rednecks. Us taxpayers don;t want your cult symbols on what we pay for. Thomas Jefferson would be so proud of the ACLU. Keep up the good fight!

Jason B. said...

As an atheist/rationalist/free thinker... I'm more than happy to see the nativity scene dismantled. I am not anti-religious but I do not think I should be forced to see Christian (or any other) symbols during religious holidays. Not everyone in the county is Christian or even religious for that matter. Keep your religious symbols to your own properties! I as a tax payer do not want to see my hard earned dollars used to provide any religious symbols around any government building.

past local said...

OK...if it is taxpayers property then why can't taxpayers can stand in as a 'Live Nativity' and another hold the Manorah....? Just a thought to be considered.

Taxpayer said...

Frankly, I'm glad it's down---it's bad enough that we tax payers are going to feel the sting in years to come from lawsuits that will undoubtedly spring forth from the "kids for cash" scheme. I really don't think we should also have to pay electricity and county workers to maintain these things. If you want a nativity set, your yard is the place for that. Insofar as the rest of you, we are not a Christian Nation. For those of you who don't know much about American history, our founding fathers sought to build a wall of separation between church and state. Improve your education a bit...

open minded in luzerne county said...

Religious symbols are placed outside of a government building, even if they represent the majority, are not constitutional. If in this case you are not Christian or Jewish, the exclusion of your religion sends a signal. It says your religion is not recognized by this government. Governments should be welcoming and inclusive places to all its citizens. Before your banter against me begins, I celebrate Christmas, pay taxes and vote. The ACLU is right.

Northern Minn said...

hey how about the jewish wearing those yumaka's? i better go call the ACLU!!!

Michael Giamber said...

The leadership at the courthouse are out to lunch. All we have to do is provide an "equal-access" policy to allow other religious and non-religious groups to participate. The infamous ACLU will then go away. Taking the Nativity down was the wrong answer. Sorry, Commissions, but you guys are a bunch of Bozo's.

David said...

I want these items placed back where they belong. We should celebrate and cherish all religious holidays and not just the ones we ourselves observe. So, put the manger back, put the menorah back. I'm fairly ignorant of Muslim holidays, but would like to see them celebrated so we can learn. The ACLU can go to heck... They've served their purpose and it's time for them to go. But that's what happens to an organization that keeps expanding into areas that weren't in the original intent. This county is run by a bunch of cowards.

Jim T said...

Just remember people when you turn your back on GOD dont expect him help you out If you are a Christian you wouldnt deny Him the way we do.

Taxpayer said...

How come no local lawyers are speaking out??? Then you wonder why are justice system is they way it is. I pay high taxes and demand that the nativity scene and menorah be put back.

Erika said...

Commissioner Steve Urban was never notified that the religious items were removed. So whom does that leave as to the decision? What's next? the American flag?

Ellen said...

Go ahead and elect more liberals like OBAMA who assign liberal judges who embrace the god hating aclu, wake up and vote for REPUBLICANS! I know the Times won't publish this because they embrace liberal Democrats!

Proud Christian and American said...

WOW! It's amazing that there are more people upset over the removal than those that are upset with it's presence! Why isn't the voice of the majority heard anymore? We are speaking loudly in DC and being ignored as well. I would be willing to attend a rally on the LC Courthouse steps demanding they put back the Nativity and Menorah displays. The majority speaks! This country has STRONG Christian based traditions and I'm sick and tired of the minorities in this country beating us down! It has to stop! Our voices must be heard!

Kathleen said...

The ACLU, the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the Anti Defamation League are nothing more than organizations presenting themselves as activists for Americans' rights when, in truth, they are 3 of the most rabid, anti-American organizations in existence. We must rid our country of these types of organizations.

Lonegunmen said...

Delucca You are a spineless lump of puss. Fight for Our RIGHT to honor the birth of our Savior.

Jim T said...

Just THINK today they tell you you cant put the Nativity at the court house what are we going to do when they try to tell what you can do in your own home. This has happened before in other lands dont think for one minute it cant and wont happen here. A word to the wise be sufficient

Harry Dupa said...

Don't make me stop this car and come back there youse guys!!!

Anthony said...

I'm an atheist and ACLU member and I find this a tad too much. There are more important things to worry about than a menorah and a nativity display.. Legally the courthouse would've been better off if the little snowman was larger and closer to the menorah and the nativity scene. If there was a secular display, like a Santa or a snowman, in better vicinity of the religious displays then most courts would've been okay with that.

Phil said...

More garbage from the ACLU!! What if someone put them back up on the lawn that doesn't work there and the County is just too busy and cash strapped to pull someone off of their regular jobs to remove the "vandals" items?!?

AD Military said...

I'm an active duty servicemember currently serving overseas. I'm originally from the NEPA area, and try and keep up with what's going on back home via the web. I found this story, and I'm absolutely floored. The ACLU does nothing but strip the majority of their traditions, because a small minority feels left out and complains. The fact that community leaders in my home town buckled under the slightest of pressure makes me sick and ashamed to even say I'm from Wilkes-Barre. Cowards.

Gram Greeneyes said...

Jesus Christ & the menorah have been a part of this country a lot longer than the ACLU. Our country was founded on Christian values, if you don't like what you see on the courthouse lawn, look the other way!

Tony said...

Wonder if the ACLU has contacted the White House and askied that their Christmas tree be taken down...What is going on in this country?

Doesn't feel too good, does it? said...

This manger scene is a detestable and blatant violation of the establishment clause. As an individual who has had rights denied to me because of religious zealots, I'm glad that the ACLU intervened. You so-called Christians spend a great deal of time sticking your nose in everyone else's business, it's about time you got a taste of your own medicine!

Jim said...

Last time I checked, our currency has "In God We Trust" ingrained on it.

Brian said...

They need to learn how to say "NO"! No to over spending, over-staffing,no-bid contracts, etc...etc... ACLU threatens to sue? NO! Tell them to take a number and get in line!

Bill in Larksville said...

Would it be possible to have an amendment on the ballot next election to put this issue up for public vote? Could we as a county do one thing correct and tell the ACLU to go to hell!

Wayne said...

Overwhelm the ACLU with Christmas cards of protest. ACLU, 125 Broad St, 18th Floor, New York, NY 10004-2427

Joe Karavis said...

I love to hear from those people who believe in a god say "our country was founded on these beliefs and traditions, we need to go back to those good old values." Our founding fathers also did not have indoor toilets, electricity, the internet, women were not allowed to vote and black people were slaves. It's 2009 folks - these primitive superstitions simply don't have the power they once did. Get over it. There are plenty of places for you to to display your plastic Jesus. Religion is the biggest catastrophe ever unleashed on mankind, the cause of so much of the world's violent history. I would guess the TL probably won't post this comment because that would offend the majority of readers, and they don't need a boycott right now.

Eric said...

Wow, how about the first amendment, which protects OUR freedom to practice religion with out government interference. These displays are tacit endorsements of a religion (in this case Judeo/Christian) over another and that is why if the suit went through Luzerne County would lose. No one is asking you to take these displays off your home. The ACLU fights for all of our rights no matter how unpopular they may be. This is simply protection against the "Tyranny of the Majority". Some day you may not be the majority and you will see why you need to be protected from it. When it comes to individual rights and liberties majority does not rule. One more thing "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams. These are the words and deeds of our founding fathers.

k said...

If you dont like the nativity set dont look at it! Simple enough. Arent there more important things than whats on the lawn of the courthouse?

True Republican said...

Can someone with experience please organize a group to protest this....and to protest the ACLU? PLEASE....let me know where I can send a donation and start picketing.

Drew said...

They cannot stop a protest, why can that protest not be a "Living Nativity"? I would suggest rounding up willing churches to take turns through Christmas.

So Sad at Christmas Time said...

So now what will happen with the Manger scene? Sell it on Ebay to but the money towards the County Budget? Give me a break! County Officials stand up for what YOU believe in! Tell the ACLU to get a REAL job!

Malcolm E. Hudgeon said...

" PUT IT BACK OUT THERE AND MAKE THEM COME AND TAKE DOWN." "THEN ARREST THEM FOR TRESPASSING" "IF YOU DON'T FOR SOMETHING YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING."

SWB said...

What a bunch of two-facers a lot of you are. The same ones calling Petrilla a coward for not wanting to engage the county into a risky lawsuit would be the same ones crying for her head if the ACLU WON, and you, the taxpayers, were liable for a tax increase to pay the award. It's always a no-win situation with you people.

Harry Dupa said...

Maybe Santa will bring Mr. DeLuca a pair of "ornaments" for Christmas. Merry Christmas Y'all! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khSml43oKJQ

Mike Kotyk said...

Somebody should have stood up to the ACLU. They are nothing but a pack of Nazis. I think what angers me the most is that it looks as if the lawsuit was being filed by someone outside of Luzerne County.

SWB said...

"Sunny": Somehow I knew it wouldn't take long before one of you valleyites drug we dreaded gays into the mix as being partially responsible for this. I'm a Christian. I still believe it's appropriate to err on the side of caution here though rather than have the county lose a law suit and have to jack your taxes even higher to cover the award. If that makes me the Anti-Christ, then so be it. What I also find amusing is that you Christians and Jews rush to demand your "right" to put the nativity scene and Menorah on public property, but if I were to put up a giant rainbow on the courthouse lawn to show support for civil rights for the LGBT community during the annual PrideFest event at Kirby Park, you'd all say "get that disgusting thing out of there!" Interesting hypocracy, but should I really expect more from you?

Mad in MTop said...

The ACLU does not represent what is in MY best interest...never has and never will.

JoePa said...

The ACLU was founded by a communist - so what do you expect - there are ways that allow a Nativity scene to be displayed - contact the Rutherford Institute - they will tell you how it's done in other towns

Sad State of the World said...

This is entirely what is wrong with this nation. We are the melting pot and acknowledge all religions and creeds. But don't place the Christmas tree up, because to be politically correct you need to have a Holiday Tree. Don't put up your nativity scene because we need to keep the seperation of church and state. Exactly what part of "one nation under God" do these people not understand. Truly sad.

Doc Holliday said...

Things to do for Christmas and Hanukkah 1.Forget Political Correctness. 2.Light the Menorah 3.Display the Nativity Scene. 4.Send the Pittsburgh, Slease Ball Lawyer an IOU. 5. Send a Christmas Card to the ACLU.

Nicole said...

Funny how the "L" in ACLU stands for liberties...Oh, the irony...

Corrinne Lombardo said...

This has gone too far !!! I've had it with this ACLU !! I'm ready to do something.... don't know just what, but they've crossed my line now. I AM OFFENDED !!! Very OFFENDED !!! Someone has to put a stop to this !! What's next ? The Christmas Tree in the square ?? I can't put my nativity on my yard on Main St.? I can't wear a cross in public ?? What's next ? We have to do something about this now !!! I just can't take it anymore !

BarBara Kosek said...

The ACLU is not representative of all the people - they pick and choose whose rights they defend. It is time to defend our beliefs against the "politically correct" bullies. Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah.

Karen said...

Why is it that the people that don't like something always have their way. Just because you don't like it why rune it for everybody. If you don't like it don't look at it. It's not fair to those who do like it.

Thomas said...

Yet his flies? http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/12/new_census_promotion_posters_r.html We are a nation of contradictions. If people want to put out decorations for their religious celebration why not. We are a free country with different believes. What bothers me is the 50 foot religious billboards on I81 someone paid $1000's for to shove their religion down my throat. But hey it's a free country and that's their prerogative too. If we keep banning every single thing in this country that makes our country colorful and unique what are we going to be left with? A pretty sad place.

Trust In said...

Black Knight go back where you came from. America was founded on religion, in God We Trust. Wake up, or live in Iraq. You do not believe in free speech, religion, etc. Have a Nice Day.

Jim Nasuim said...

UGH! C'mon already! I don't think this is what our founding fathers meant by Freedom of Speech. They came to this land to excercise freedom from persecution under religious belief, and now we are suffering persecution from not being able to believe! Get a life, ACLU. Look into your own organizations and ask if you are truly free.

Bill A said...

I think the term "WIMPDOGS" applies here, so let them sue, what makes you think they"ll win......

Janet said...

I had tears in my eyes when I read the headlines today. So, so sad. I will pray for the godless, horrible haters that are responsible for this.

true worshipper said...

"Thou shalt not make unto thy self any graven image, thou shalt not bow down and worship them" These Nativity scenes are nothing more than empty idols and are displeasing to God; go read your Bible's or at least be consistent in your thinking. Any statue of Jesus/Mary/Saints are an abomination and should be destroyed. I am so glad to see this idol removed from public sight, God must be smiling down from HIS heavens.

JELLYFISH HUNTER!! said...

PUT GOD BACK IN OUR LIVES!!! ITS A SHAME THE SPINELESS IN THAT CORRUPTIUON RIDDEN COURTHOUSE CAVED SO EASILY ...GOD IS GOING TO MAKE YOU PAY .... JELLYFISH !!!

J Patrick said...

Growing up, we were taught to be afraid of the Communists who did their best to eradicate any religious expression.......look like they're still around!

Ed Ossalogue said...

For a minute, I thought I was in the Soviet Union. Since when is atheism the official creed of this country? It's time for us to locate the ACLU lawyers in this area (one practices in Wilkes-Barre) and make live VERY difficult for them. Take back your country, America. And, while we're at it, throw out the spineless county commissioners, starting with Petrilla!

Jack said...

You are infringing on my rights as a Christian. I am going to follow legal advice for this!

A believer said...

A nation that turns it's back on God will not be blessed. Perhaps this is why our country and county is in turmoil. They have removed prayer from our public schools, prohibited groups from using schools or government agencies to sponsor or hold religious assemblies, and are trying to remove God from our currency. Our founding fathers are rolling in their graves.Our county commissioners need to stand up to the ACLU and show that we are a county that will not let our freedom of religious expression be infringed upon. The ACLU and it's supporters will have to reckon with God on judgment day, which is quickly approaching.They will reap the seeds they have sown.

Fred said...

Here's what we need to do. Someone needs to pull a permit to protest on public property. The protest can be a living nativity scene on the courthouse lawn...maybe a church group can organize and get volunteers to work it.

Taxpayer...suprirsed! said...

"Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -Diderot I'm glad to see that there are others out there who were happy to see this monstrosity removed!

Fred said...

Just wait about another hour. This story will get passed around to ACLU thugs and they will flood this message board with "Pro ACLU" messages from all over the country.

Patty said...

WHY don't we have it on the BALLOT and VOTE on it? Winner gets his/her way. Isn't THAT "The American Way"?

Bob said...

I bet ACLU gets Christmas Day off? If they are so hardcore don't celebrate CHRISTMAS. (SEE YOU ON THE 25TH)

jeff said...

I agree with Deluca-Let's make the prudent decision here and celebrate at home the way we want as individuals. Before we know it, we'll have to represent every religion on the planet and the lawn won't be big enough. My Christmas won't be any better or worse because of a few statues on a lawn. Anyone who is angry about it should vent their anger by volunteering at a soup kitchen or something. Our rights to freedom of religious expression are still in tact. Our priorities as a county are the real problem. We don't need three wise men on the lawn---we need them in the commissioners' offices.

Joe said...

What happened to Luzerne County's CIVIL LIBERTY to observe a scene and tradition seen in front of the courthouse for as long as I can remember?!

Disbelief. said...

All this over plastic figures??? I don't remember seeing this many comments over the "kids for cash" scheme. You people are a bunch of wacko idolaters. Has America really become this stupid?

Mr Citizen said...

I suggest we all proudly display a nativity scene or a menorah on our own lawns. The ACLU may prevent Christmas and Hannakuh on the county courthouse lawn, but never in our own homes and hearts!

Jack said...

I think its time we went to the offices of the ACLU and looked to see what offends us - then we can file lawsuits to stop that and see how they like it. No wonder people in this country have lost their morals and values, no wonder people have no second thoughts about comitting a murder. When will all of this end?

Mike said...

I can't believe all of these people are complaining, but then again, most of them are probably Christians that I would deem a bit nutty. The law is the law. Not everyone believes in Jesus or the Christian religion. "In God We Trust" wasn't put on money until 1957 due to urges by devout Christians. They probably should have listened to Roosevelt - It's a cheap political motto and is sacrilegious to have it on money. The pledge of allegiance was also altered in 1954 by religious nuts to include "one nation under god". Both of these inclusions of god were signed off by Eisenhower. Our nation was not founded on the Christian religion...it was slowly taken over by it by crazies who think their religion is the only religion and all other religions are false and should be destroyed. They persecuted others throughout history just as they were persecuted.

mousey said...

I'm all for the separation of church and state and I'd like the state to stop shoving the new religion of political correctness down everybodys throat.

Tom said...

The ACLU needs to go to hell and straight to hell dont let them collect the $200 when they get there. Call the Local ACLU office and let them know how you feel I did. 570-941-ACLU Its time for people to stand up to this bully group. ACLU = American Crooked Lawers Union.

Bret said...

I'm enjoying all of these harmful comments coming from, supposed, peaceful religious people. If one was so peaceful and content with their worship towards said higher beings, why go and attack others who just want to be represented as well? What this article FAILS to leave out is that the courthouse had an option to put up a figure representing Atheism, but they instead refused and removed everything.

JOANj said...

AS THE biBLE SAYS THER WILL BE MANY DEVILS WALKING THE EARTH AND IF WE SUBMIT TO THEM GOD WILL DISAPPEAR IT LOOKS LIKE THE ACLU RESEMBLES ONE OF THEM IN GOD WE TRUST AND WE WISH EVERYONE A BLESSED AND MERRY CHRISTMAS

mousey said...

Oh yeah, I forgot. If there isn't going to be any display of Christmas allowed then there should be no more paid Christmas holiday at the courthouse either. I expect to see the courthouse open and everybody at work on Christmas.

Fed-up said...

Margaret Thatcher put it best when she said "For a Country that founded on the pricncipals of God and religion - we wprk awfully hard to keep God out of our lives in America." Our money reads "In God We Trust" What's next in the ACLU we trust.

DISGUSTED said...

The ACLU stands for every thing that is wrong in this country! Americans have stood back and allowed the ACLU far too much power for far too long! Commissioners - for ONCE - do the right thing here and tell the ACLU where to go! Get out the Nativity, get out the Menorah and display them proudly!! Who are these people to tell us what to do???? Is this America or what???

Jason B. said...

Again, speaking as an Atheist...Since when is Christianity the only belief system in the U.S. There are many other religions in this country that are not Christian based. Our country was indeed founded by people seeking relief from religious persecution (amongst many other things) but that does not mean that we all have to believe in Christ as the messiah or your god as the one and only deity. Such thinking is narrow minded and it makes me wish more people would take the time to educate themselves in regards to other belief systems. This is supposed to be a multi-cultural and multi-religious country.(Don't confuse the two, as so many people in the valley seem to do) So, unless the county finds a way to represent all of the religions(or lack there of)that are included amongst it's population... I think the the Nativity and Menorah should not be displayed.

Coleen said...

When you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything. God have mercy on us as a country. It seems there really is no room at the Inn...or in the hearts. Funny how these "symbols" are so threatening to the ACLU. If faith didn't matter to them, why are they so hell bent on removing the visual reminders? Satan comes in all forms... just sayin'. This is yet another reminder to pray and pray much. Prayer is a much stronger force than a any lawsuit they can file. Put the Nativity and Menorah back and have some conviction. With God before you, who can be against you?

R Hoek said...

I have a copy of the constitution. It does not specify "separation of church and state". That phrase was made up in the late sixties by...the ACLU ! The media adopted that phrase as part of their secular religious dogma to further their dreams of a communist utopia.

bill said...

looks like the devil won that hand,whats next remove all the crosses from arlington cemetary .

I'm John Senchak, and I disapprove of County-Gate (Power to the People) said...

A better solution would be to put up a huge sign in it's place that says " WITHIN THIS BUILDING LIES HUGE AMOUNTS OF CORRUPTION"

dave gee said...

what's going to happen when the aclu get its christmas bonus???????

Popeye said...

This likens to Satan closing down all the fire staions in Hades because Beelzebub complained. Of course, there has to be an atheist or two who are celebrating.

John Webster said...

Why doesn't the county lease or better, sell a segment of the grounds large enough to set up/display the Nativity and Menorah to someone who thinks that piece of property would be the ideal spot to display them at the holidays? Legalese mumbo-jumbo would, I'd think, easily guarantee what that piece of property could or could not be used for in a contract between the county and the private party. (wink)

Denise said...

I am so sick of them dictating what we can and cannot do. When is enough, enough. Why do we not have a say. It truly makes me ill that everyone caves for these people. I am really disappointed with the county and the cowards running it.

teri r. said...

Good LORD, enough already ! There would be NO Christmas at all if Christ had not been born ! There would be no money in shopkeepers' pockets from the purchase of Christmas gifts. and the few who have an 'issue' with holiday displays should just CLOSE THEIR EYES when they drive past. What happened to freedom of religion FOR ALL set forth in the Constitution.

Maureen said...

maureen said: i'm with leonard piazzi. I miss the old nativity which was one of the most beautiful sets i'd ever seen. I would make a special trip just to take it in. So, is it in conahan's yard or chiveralla's yard?

Luzerne County Resident said...

Bet the number of reader comments on this story total more than the reader comments in the Luzerne County corruption stories. Guess Obama was right in saying that we "cling to our bibles" here in NEPA...

Katie said...

I celebrate Christmas and acknowledge other holidays as well, but am really not upset by the removal of the manger and menorah. The removal of these decorations is in no way affecting our lives other than giving everyone something to complain about. If you like mangers and menorahs, then decorate your property with them. Seems like everyone just wants something to complain about. Is it really that bad that everyone is this upset?? It's not like they told you that you can't wear your camoflauge pants or be obese (like 90% of nepa). =)

Mark said...

Just leave it there and let them sue, no lawyers needed just plead NO CONTEST and let judge throw it out.

Joe said...

I heard the ACLU is going after Santa next year. After all he's known as St. Nick in some circles. I bet in Luzerne County there has to be 1% of the population who think the ACLU did the right thing. I wish someone would look out for the other 99%.

mel said...

everyone is always asking why is the world getting so bad well this is what i think we have thrown God out of schools and other pubilc places.maby he is backing off.I dont get offened when I see things of a different religions everyone mind your on business and love your God

tbone said...

Get a life ACLU. Use your resources for something that has merit. If the items were on display IN the courthouse i would agree. This is public land no differnet than the Square. You should be ashamed.

anon said...

This is very sad, taking the Christ out of Christmas again, it is a Christian holiday!!!!

jb said...

Here is who complained: "The civil liberties groups were alerted to the presence of the religious emblems by local members of the Northeast Pennsylvania (NEPA) Freethought Society, including Justin Vacula and Rodney Collins. "I'm happy the Luzerne County Courthouse will be taking down its religious displays and will no longer communicate a message of supporting religion to every person passing the courthouse," said Vacula. "The Luzerne County Courthouse is now a place for everyone."

MERRY CHRISTMAS, ACLU said...

Thanks, ACLU! Your nonsense gave us another opportunity to publicly voice our beliefs and to prove perserverance in our Faiths!

ridiculous said...

Outrageous. If us Christians, and our fellow Jews, want to express our religion, it should be allowed on public property. Freedom of religion. Free speech. We should countersue the ACLU until it gets up to the Supreme court. Hopefully the judges will use common sense.

Mary Harrison said...

I say it is time to take the ACLU to task. I was acquainted with a lawyer who was admitted to practice before the Supreme Court. Amazingly there is no clause that says separation of church and state. However it does guarantee me freedom of religion. As we are removing symbols to patronize the practice of atheism which is a religion than everyone should be able put up decorations and have traditions. People it is time to give the ACLU a lesson.

Karen said...

Lawyers and the ACLU have completely misconstrued the meaning of the clause “separation of church and state”. Our founding fathers’ were strongly influenced by their religious beliefs and the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, which includes references to God, would be appalled by our government’s opposition to our expressions of religion. The First Amendment was intended to forbid the creation of an official state church, NOT to drive religion out of public life. Let’s stop the madness of those with political agendas who want to take away our most cherished holiday traditions. Merry Christmas Happy Hanukkah and Happy Kwanza! I hope this season brings peace, joy and tolerance to everyone!

M... said...

From the ACLU website and Press release: "The civil liberties groups were alerted to the presence of the religious emblems by local members of the Northeast Pennsylvania (NEPA) Freethought Society, including Justin Vacula and Rodney Collins. "I'm happy the Luzerne County Courthouse will be taking down its religious displays and will no longer communicate a message of supporting religion to every person passing the courthouse," said Vacula. "The Luzerne County Courthouse is now a place for everyone."

Disgusted in Luzerne County said...

Whoever in the courthouse that was responsible (Petrilla) for taking down the Menorah and Manger. Im sure these people will be in church on Christmas though. Such hypocrits!

brian said...

I knew a whole bunch of Nepans would get riled up by this. This country was founded on FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND FROM RELIGION. A taxpayer government property can not endorse ANY religion at all. Would you Christians like to see a Hindu or Buddha god on the courthouse lawn as you drove by? Of course not. They had to take down the Menorrah too. The United States is supposed to represent people of all religions, spiritual, and non-relgious people. put it on your lawns, your houses, you pay for that; but don't have a hissy when others don't like endorsement of a religion on a property they help pay for.

Good Catholics, every one... said...

I can't say that I'm surprised by the nature of the majority of these comments. All but one of the corrupt judges and county officials all good Catholics... don't worry about the corruption, just worry about your idols.

Lynn said...

Why don't we get several citizen together and build a class action lawsuit against the ACLU for violating our rights as county citizens. I hate this organization, they are the biggest idiots and scrooges ever to walk the earth. Allah forbid anyone asks a muslim to remove their head gear, the ACLU would be right on that.

Barbara said...

Leave the Nativity scene, leave the Menorah, leave the Holiday tree and put a manaquin with a dish towel on it's head, wearing a bomb vest and we will all be represented!

Franker said...

I classify myself as left of center, but, man, this is freaking ridiculous. Why can't people celebrate or visualize the holidays in a way that they feel, even if it is on public property? Come on already.

For those who want to get involved said...

For those of you who are tired of groups like the ACLU infringing on our contitutional right for freedom of religion and the rights to express them, meet at the courthouse near the manger scene at 10:00 am Friday. The court house is aware of this for security purposes. Dress in manger attire or bring your menorahs. It's time we, of the Christian and Jewish faiths take back our rights and start to bring our nation back into God's favor.

Wishing the ACLU a blessed and heart-changing holiday said...

Let's put it to a referendum. Pittsburgh lawyers have no business telling us that we can't recognize Hannukah and Christmas as a community.

Nosmo King said...

I say thake the whole shooting match across the street and put it up on the Kings Campus. Let the ACLU try and complain about a catholic University and a nativity scene.

Kathy parsons said...

Simple question? If there is to be total seperation of church and state why does any of the government have off for CHRISTMAS?

Irene said...

I feel there must have been complaint to ACLu to get this started. IMHO Don't agree but it is what it is.

Eric said...

Lynn just so you know if the Dept of Transportation asked you to remove your crucifix or your yamulke, the ACLU would be there to defend you. Unpopular speech and expressions are the ones that need defending the most. That is how we can all be free.

Bonnie said...

This is NOT what our forefathers had in mind when they said separation of church and state.

alby said...

this country was founded and became independent because of christianity - in god we trust - put jesus back on the lawn

Informed said...

um...okay... here's a little quiz question- Can anybody show me in the Constitution where those words "separation of church and state" are written? ...anybody? ....any takers? No? Well, gee whiz...that's because those words AREN'T THERE! Nope, that phrase isn't in our lovely Constitution; it's just a quick way to say what people think it means...which is a bit different from the phrase-ology, and one way for groups like this to jump on these displays. BTW, when I worked at the VA, they had a menorah in the lobby and would light the appropriate bulbs...but NOTHING expressly for Christmas was allowed...not talking about trees, which started even before the Roman feast of Saturnalia, but real Christmas symbols...

Disgusted said...

Idoltry is wrong but we arent praying or worshipping these figures..we are simply being reminded of the day our SAVOIR was born...And by displaying this nativity on a public place only enables us to believe that we live in a free country where our officials are god fearing people and who are people we can be proud to have speak on our behalf...but it sems they lost there values...i can just cry over this ...we need to call CNN and MSNBC and ask GOD to perform a Christmas miracle

tj said...

I would not take those down, no matter what the commies said. THEY DONT RUN THE SHOW. DO THEY?

Maria said...

This is actually pretty scary. I really think we need to stick with our Christmas Holiday traditions and put that Nativity scene and Manorah back where it belongs. It's part of what we are about as a community in our country. When we allow the ACLU to do this, then we really have problems. My God, someone needs to act on this NOW and if it becomes a legal action issue so then let it be and we'll deal with it but for now, PUT IT BACK UP and don't bow to this group.

Loser'n County said...

This is to ERIC and all other NAYSAYERS! I would like to see you challenge the quote I'm about to throw at you. Your facts are completely and utterly FALSE and WRONG! You must use fact check or wikipedia. Go to a library and read books about your PRESIDENTS and FOUNDING FATHERS! "It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

Kings Person said...

It seems that our buddy Justin Vacula (the main reason that the issue of the manger and menorah was raised)is a 3rd year student at KINGS COLLEGE. So he doesn't believe in God (he is a proclaimed atheist) but wants his education from a Catholic college. What a yutz. I guess he got his 15 minutes of fame and is dancing about with glee. Merry Christmas Justin and GOD bless you

WTF??? said...

http://www.meetup.com/NEPA-Freethought/ everyone needs to show up at these meetings and ask them to explain themselves. how does a small group like this get to ruin everyting for everybody?

Merry Christmas To All said...

Why does the majority not have a voice!!! When will we stop allowing the minor groups to make OUR decisions... Ridiculous !!!!!!!!

Know your history said...

Well it is sad to see these traditions end and I think it's foolish to do so, but at the same time I can't help but smile at those who pound up and down that this is the time of year when Jesus was born. It wasn't. We don't know when he was born. Simply put, the Church needed a holiday to replace the celebration of the Winter Solstice and the birth of the Savior was as good a holiday as any.

jason said...

I am an atheist, and i even agree that this is going a little too far

Michelle said...

Since I am a tax payer, and it is MY tax money that funds the Luzerne County Court house - then I think that I will sue the ACLU for surpressing MY freedom of religion by taking these items off the lawn of a building I as a tax payer pays for! What next? We won't be able to decorate our own houses? ACLU needs a reality check! If anything - I am offended by the ACLU!!! NOT the Nativity scene or a Menorah.

ANGRY ELF said...

You scumbag aclu a*#holes have nothing better to represent than frivilous threats against a menorah and nativity scene. With the atrocities continuously being bestowed upon the taxpayes of Luzerne County by the criminals in charge, the menorah and nativity scene can at least let people reflect once a year of the possibility of peace on earth and good will toward man. You clowns want to stamp out that idea for no good reason and the County Clowns actually comply. This is what is wrong with this world today. If you people don't like it, don't look at it!!! MERRY CHRISTMAS P.S. I bet you don't even believe in Santa Claus.

ntx said...

Eric seems to be the only one here who gets why a Nativity scene and a menorah on courthouse grounds are 100% inappropriate and contrary to the ideals this country was founded on. Everyone else needs to reread the Constitution (if they ever read it in the first place). It's all right there in the first 10 words of Article I of the Amendments to the Constitution. It's pretty basic people.

mousey said...

The ACLU should be renamed the American Tyrannical Society.

Kings Person said...

By the way, the letter was faxed to the courthouse and demanded that they respond by close of business today or they would file the lawsuit and that the decorations had to be down by the 18th. here is the website that shows the letter and Justin happy with his 15 minutes of fame: http://greenatheist.blogspot.com/ All our illustrious commisioners (minus Greg of course) had to do is not respond and let them sue and by the time it hit the courts the season would be over. A couple of idiots ruin it for almost everyone. It seems that they were upset that the three displays..the manger, the menorah and frosty were too far apart and showed that they stood apart instead of being lumped all together.

Adam said...

I agree with Anthony and Jason B.

Kings person said...

We should all send a Christmas/Hanukkah e-mail or fax to Justin, the ACLU and the wonderful attorney from the ACLU Witold Walczak. It seems that they are lacking in the holiday spirit. So get your faxes and e-mails ready and let them get into the spirit of the season. Oh yeah and tell them Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, happy Kwanza and God bleem them all. Or as one comedian said..."In order to be completely politically correct say "Merry Christmahanukwanzakah and a happy festivus to us all"

Eric said...

A quote by one patriot does not trump a treaty ratified by the senate and signed by the President. All I'm saying is freedom of religion requires that our government does not endsorse any religion over another. I submit that display of these items does just that.

Bullhead said...

sell it to a private citizzen who can display it legally and see the ACLU back down. Or you could include some secular items that would satisfy the Supreme court-

Michelle said...

If this Justin Vacula is a "proclaimed atheist" and goes to a Catholic college - I think that the college should kick him out! He is mocking the college and all Catholics by being there IMHO! If a Nativity scene bothered him that much and is only on display for a few weeks, then how could he be around religious articles every day at the school? I'm sure the Bishop would not be too happy to hear that there is an atheist at a Catholic college! HMMMMM....

Mateo said...

The simple fact that so many of you continue to bring up God and Jesus only adds to the fact that this is an exclusive religious display, which is simply not allowed in a setting like this. If any of you bothered to read the statement from the ACLU you would see it is a clear violation of the law...what more evidence than that do you want? America is a land founded on equality, and yes believe it or not this also applies to religious beliefs as well!

JR said...

The Second American Revolution is coming.

Renee Schroeder said...

There will be a protest Sunday at 1 PM, organized by Frank Scavo. Voice of the People, USA is also holding one on Wednesday at 11 AM. Help us protest the ACLU! These will be on the courthouse stairs! Please plan on attending if you are able!

tmd678 said...

This confirms my opinion the county solicitor is a novice who is not really versed in the common sense of municipal law. Last bad decision was that concerning the sheriff's salary . I am sure the commissioners will be directed to pay the sheriff the higher salary.

Michael Harrison said...

It states that there is a separation of Church and State in the Constitution. Enough Said

luzerne cty sucks said...

WWJD????

Sandy said...

>>>It is rediculous that we as Americans cannot even have a Nativity in our own country because it "offends others"! << This is what most people posting are reacting too, but it has nothing to do with the separation of church and state. It is an intellectual/legal issue, not one of emotion. Separation is to protect religion - all religion. The ACLU does not make the laws, they are only enforcing existing constitutional rights. Spend some time in Iran before advocating government sponsored religion.

bob said...

Who elected the ACLU to govern Luzerne County?

Paul Smedley said...

This is very sad for not only our county but for the world, that a few speak for the many. Shall we remove Churches and Temples from our landscapes so we don't offend anyone as well? May God have mercy on us all for allowing this type of action to take place and allowing us to elect those officials that will stand back and do nothing. Maybe that's why the county is such a mess. Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah to all!

Get Real! said...

Enough is enough. It is time the commissioners stand up and do something for the taxpayers in this county. I agree with Dave the ACLU doesn;t have enough money to sue every county, township, boro, etc. Stand up and call their bluff. But instead we just turn our backs and let them take away everything. The ACLU has got to go.

Get Real! said...

Jim said...

"Commissioners at the time refused to comply with the removal request. They expanded the manger and decided to add a menorah. Security was also added to make sure the items were not vandalized at night." What a shame that we don't have commissioners with B***S any more.

We the enlightened people said...

What don't you people understand? The courts have ruled that displays of this character are illegal. So you think the Supreme Court should bow to the lowly holy-rollers of the Wyoming Valley? This has been the law for years now and this county has been breaking it. ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL!! Now get over it, and keep your religion on your own private property!!

A Believer said...

To Bret and all the other ACLU members, atheist, agnostic/non-believers out there, you do have representation of a holiday of your own--April 1st. Psalm 14:1 states, The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." Happy April Fool's Day. Have a Blessed Christmas. Happy Hannukah. Enjoy the day off that celebrates the birth of our Savior who was sent to this earth to redeem your soul as a result of your sins.All Christians, pray for these people.

Lynda said...

Giving these people the power to eliminate these simple expressions which does NOT interfere with the church/state status, is eventually going to ruin this country. Everyone is so afraid three people will be offended anymore. Funny how we all sit back and let these things happen. We've lost our backbone, and our founding fathers would be ashamed.

Sean said...

To all at the courthouse.I am 56 years old and I feel this was ok then, it is ok now. Bring on the ACLU, See you in court. IN GOD WE TRUST.

digitalmkii said...

Oh yeah......That manger symbol has got to go also

Concerned Citizen said...

FIGHT THE ACLU. They are violating our rights as a community. Their tactics are pathetic.

Joe said...

And to WE THE ENLIGHTENED?? I have news for you. The courthouse is our property. We pay for it, we support it, we maintain it. That courthouse is our property. Do you pay taxes?

dee said...

what a shame. it's the beginning of armageddon. the devil takes on many forms. this time it's the ACLU

The Black Knight said...

Put your silly light-up IDOLS in your own yards! Keep 'em off the PEOPLES' lawn! Silly religious whackos!

rose said...

i wonder what would happen if they decide to display the holiday decorations on the sidewalks in front of the courthouse? there's an idea. noone owns the sidewalks as i understand.

Donna said...

When are the legal beagles going to realize that our Founding Fathers simply added the church/state clause simply to avoid the US Federal Gov't from establishing a "Church of the United States" and forcing people to worship that religion. England did that back then (Church of England) and it irritated the Founding Fathers to no end. The Founding Fathers DID NOT intend to prohibit anyone, including Fed, State and/or Local gov't agencies, from displaying religious items nor prohibit saying religious words, phrases, and/or prayers in public. Establishing a religion vs. honoring and recognizing a religion (or religions) are two toally different things.

Craig said...

SOCAS exists for a good reason. It's a shame that private groups have to police our own constitution. Separate but equal is hardly ever equal.

MCA said...

It really amazes how misinformed so many of you are, but you speak so boldly and with such certainty. There are no references to god in the Constitution. "Separation of church and state" was not a phrase made up by the ACLU in the 1960s. The 1st Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The 14th Amendment states "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." The 1st amendment ensures that the government does not favor one religion over others, and the 14th amendments ensures that state and local governments follow the federal Constitution. It's not that hard, folks.

Bobabooey said...

Our state is liberal blue so expect more of this for generations to come. You reap what you sow

Joe Valley said...

I suggest that we have a "Live Nativity", and feature all those indicted courthouse goons. I realize that there is an overabundance of donkeys in the crew, and that it will be a ral problem finding three wise men, but we can sure give it the ol'valley with a heart attempt, henns or no? I guess Scooch will have to play the baby infant, as he is only one who can fit into the cradle. Maybe we can have Powell build the manager, and Dunne can hire the stage hands and directors? Not a big choice for Mary, and Toole can be a good Joseph. Oh it will be just grand!

Bazz said...

Let's all stay in our nice warm houses and complain via computer. Because that's what us as Americans are good at. God forbid we go down there and take a stand. I'm in Iraq right now making my stand, I don't get Christmas this year. But being over here does make me appreciate our liberties and the need to fight for them. God Bless

mousey said...

MCA,"The 1st Amendment states Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Are you suggesting that a seasonal Christmas display or a Menorah on public grounds is synonymous with making a law prohibiting free expression of religious beliefs? I don't see any violation of the 14th Amendment here either.

Joe Skep said...

The ignorance of the Valley christians is APALLING. Listen to yourselves…you are the terrorists now. If you want to advertise for jesus, do it on your own lawn (private property). This country is founded on the freedoms of ALL people, not just you christians. I'd like to be FREE of your ignorance about the law and the rights of others and especially FREE of your oppressive religious, mythical and make-believe symbols on tax payer property. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"…sound familiar? IT SHOULD. It's the LAW.

James said...

The only reason this was illegal is because it was a government entity presenting the display, using government dollars on government land. If you all want your nativity on the courthouse lawn so badly, ask the County to make that space available for public (non-government!) groups to present their own holiday displays, and then some church group or private citizen can put out a nativity scene perfectly legally. The catch is that the space would also have to be open to other groups who want to mount their own displays - Jewish, Wiccan, Buddhist, Atheist, Satanist, or anything else - but equal access is a small price to pay for the legal right to commemorate your holiday outside the courthouse, right? Right??

Dane said...

What I think we should do is put everything back, and put a middle finger with the words "@!%& you, ACLU" on it. Grow some balls, Luzerne County.

Zippy said...

Hey Harry Dupa: Thanks for that video. Had to be the best trombone playing I have every heard. I think I may get my trumpet and go hang out on the courthouse steps and play some music. Maybe I'll get this idiot loser from King's College to sit outside with me and collect money to give to the soup kitchen. King's College should be ashamed to admit they have students like this. Any alumni should forfeit their donations. This is what happens when the school becomes more concerned with developing real estate then carrying on their catholic traditions.

Denny said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElDab5Tf9Gs Christmas without Jesus

mousey said...

Joe Skep, Congress isn't making any law dictating religious expression. We’re talking about a Christmas seasonal display. Man…some people are just so ignorant.

Florence Mokris said...

Please add me to the list of people that are upset that the Manger and Menorah had to be removed by a Fascist group named the ACLU. Furthermore, Jason Vacula certainly is trying to make a name for himself in an adverse way or a mockery of King's College.Hopefully, he is not a student of this prominent college. I think it is time for us democratic people to have more of a say of what we want to appear on our public grounds. The ACLU is always crying that their rights are being taken away from them. I say what about our rights. Aren't we covered by the same amendment that they are covered by. Since we live in the USA, we all need to abide by the constitution. Isn't it time that the ACLU, instead of being such a nuisance, supported the other side for a change. Either that or if they aren't happy here, let them move to another country. That said I remain another taxpayer in the city of Wilkes-Barre, and hopefully an asset to my community.

Sojourner said...

It's the Law of Man. Is it a wonder the entire judicial system is crumbling? No weapon formed against me shall prosper! Isaiah 54:17

wayne said...

protest tuesday 22nd county courthouse please call me 851-8607 anti A.C.L.U come and show support

Michelle Ullom said...

Who amoung us are giving the ACLU their power? It's time to take it away. We as taxpayers are funding this ludicrisy.

gene546 said...

Who exactly dictates what people ought to do or not to do, “We the people” or a bunch of atheistic idiots?

Chuck said...

"Anti Christian Liberators United" win again. Atheists shoving their opinion down our throats because we believe in something. We don't care what they believe, but when we voice our Christian opinion, these scumbags rise to the surface.

Chuck said...

Maybe we could use a little "God" at the dome anyway.

Kevin E. Ryan said...

It is time to no longer recognize any holidays. All government offices should be open and government employees as well as all secularists should have to work 7 days a week, as having any day off tacitly recognizes that on the 7th day, God rested. The rest of the private world can live according to the heritage that has been theirs for centuries. Let the public institutions go to the devil.

Stephen Wengryn Orefield, Pennsylvania said...

Dear Anti Christian Leftist Union, there WILL be separation of CHURCH and STATE in HEAVEN. STATE is where you go to if you don't get to HEAVEN.

backwards americans said...

if anybody has ever had civil liberties violated by bully cop, then you would feel different...in fact, I hope nobody can display anything EVER!!! so at least apathetic americans who dont care a d)(* about anything other than themselves get an idea of something other than their greedy selfish narcissism and self centered egocentrism in which climate change affecting rest of world doesnt exist, starvation genocide doesnt exist, nothing but their own small mindedness

Tom Canning said...

The empty manger sends an even more strong message "God doesn't live here any more "

The ACLU is right! said...

Christians have short memories. In the early days of this country, there were state sponsored religions. If yours wasn't the sect of choice, you were an outsider and it was apparent. Now that we call ourselves a christian nation, we forget from whence we came. The right to worship comes with it a right not to, and the government should stay out of my church.

patrick lundy said...

many people have given their life to fight battles for our country. shouldnt we be willing to fight for our creator with whatever resources we have ?

rockman said...

The words "separation of church and state" are not in the U.S. Constitution. They must be thinking of the Communist Manifesto...

D said...

GET REAL THATS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS COUNTY EVERYONE WANTS TO GET RID OF GOD WONDER WHAT HE HAS INSTALLED FOR US

Senior said...

Every private residence should display a nativity scene during the Christmas season. Why should we depend on the secular government to do what is appropriate when so few of us do this privately?

Kathy Zimmerman said...

The ACLU is an anti-Christian hate group. They are powerful and supported by the liberal elites now in power.

Paul M. said...

It never ceases to amaze me how much Christmas bothers the ACLU. They say that any display relating to God and/or Jesus is a violation of separation of church and state. First off, that whole separation thing isn't in the Constitution! Secondly, what about the rights of the people to display stuff like that? Doesn't the ACLU defend those who are being discriminated against? Yes, unless you're a Christian (as always.) And thirdly, since Islam is a religion, why doesn't the ACLU file a lawsuit against a Muslim display if someone is offended? Unless the ACLU doesn't count Allah as actually being God. And one more thing: I'm sick and tired of hearing "Happy Holiday(s)"!!! I celebrate CHRISTMAS!! So say "Merry Christmas"! It won't kill you or the person/people you say it to!

Christina said...

I hope the locals bring their own nativity figures on Christmas eve and complete the scene themselves..

Cathy Virecci-Fana said...

Most of the arguments against the nativity being up make no rational sense. The bottom line is that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. We take oaths on the Bible, God is mentioned on our money and in our pledge of allegiance. Christmas has been a longstanding traditional holiday in which a once Christian dominated country celebrated its Christ. We still have that freedom, of course, but of the ACLU to all of the sudden try and strip away the traditional fabric of our society is in effect going to turn our nation into a religiously intolerant one. Examples of this can be seen in Russia. Yes, the nativity on the courthouse is the first step, but it won't be long until someone is offended by the nativity on someone's private lawn. This is what the these actions will result in.

Jim said...

Hey, these guys sure know how to be kill-joys! I think the ACLU is unconstitutional!